I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated.
The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typically medicate for any pain, and the body starts shutting down when food and water stops). This is observed with somberness, but celebrated as very positive act.
When someone starts this process, it's a unique experience speaking with them, as there's usually nothing that comes up, and the moment does not really lend itself to small talk :)
I was curious about how he actually died and found an [1] article describing it:
> Kahneman used the services of Pegasos in the village of Roderis in Nunningen, Switzerland. In the death room with a view over green hills, wearing a suit and tie, he lay on the bed and turned on an infusion of sodium pentobarbital himself. A companion held his hand and told him they were holding it on behalf of his loved ones. Kahneman's last words were "I feel their love."
[1]: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-weltstar-...
Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp...). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling.
You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.
The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone.
That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it.
There is a cost reduction incentive, though, which is why it happens. Costs can be reduced for abled people by convincing them to exercise and eat more fiber, so the same pressure can do good instead of evil. At some point we have to decide to care about people.
I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1].
In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case here.
[1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-al...
This is a bit of an aside but I wonder if people who possess greater intellectual capacity are more resilient - at least outwardly - against old-age mental decline, as even their mental function diminishes, they have an excess buffer so that they are slower to cross the 'threshold' where their inability to mentally function in everyday life becomes apparent?
Related, a 5 page page PDF, freely downloadable:
Should assisted dying be legalised?
Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities in Medicine volume 9, Article number: 3 (2014)
Thomas D G Frost, Devan Sinha & Barnabas J Gilbert
https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341...
Abstract
When an individual facing intractable pain is given an estimate of a few months to live, does hastening death become a viable and legitimate alternative for willing patients? Has the time come for physicians to do away with the traditional notion of healthcare as maintaining or improving physical and mental health, and instead accept their own limitations by facilitating death when requested? The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge held the 2013 Varsity Medical Debate on the motion “This House Would Legalise Assisted Dying”. This article summarises the key arguments developed over the course of the debate. We will explore how assisted dying can affect both the patient and doctor; the nature of consent and limits of autonomy; the effects on society; the viability of a proposed model; and, perhaps most importantly, the potential need for the practice within our current medico-legal framework.
I’m young, but I’m at the age where I’ve seen many grandparents pass away and I must say, I support assisted suicide. The helplessness of the last stretch of your life, something that can last a couple of years, where you often need to help to even stand, doesn’t seem like a period of time worth living. Further modern medicines, in my opinion insane focus on extending life of the very old, compounds this situation to something much worse. I know of a relative who had 5 surgeries, 2 ICU admits in his final year, he was 84. First they were convinced his kidney was failing, then his liver, then they thought cancer and on an on that I couldn’t help but suspect whether this was a money grabbing scheme.
I do not know if this was ever widely practiced, but I think the ancient Indian ritual of going to the forest and starving to death in your last days is basically fine. It gives a dignified, sacred end to a life, while the modern medical sciences constant battle against the inevitable ends up distorting and deforming the last days of your life and forces you to leave without dignity clinging to the last vestiges of your humanity that’s left.
So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems?
If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come see us last year.
I’m very wary of making it legal for doctors to euthanize an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid an eventual decline.
It’s relatively common for families to push people into nursing homes, but in this case there’s an even stronger direct financial incentive. I don’t trust the system to adequately prevent this.
This is blogspam of the original WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assis...
Some of its wording is weird, like mentioning his wife dying in the same context of two other partners with no explanation. The original is a much better read.
Took care of someone with Alzheimers for six years until they passed away. No one should have to exist like that, for that long. A biological shell simply of automatic inputs and outputs.
Robin Williams had to hang himself.
There should be easy medical options in the US.
assisted suicide bears risks similar to adding benevolent backdoors to software. The policy rests on the assumption that policies and those enforcing them will always be benevolent.
We're opening up tremendous abuses of power by allowing the state to kill people for non-criminal behavior.
Sure the first iteration is presented as "voluntary", but the next edition will be for the greater good. And how about sinister / malevolent abuses of "voluntary" suicide -- similar to abuses over guardianship.
at least with guardianship the person can be set free, because they are still alive.
"My work is done. Why wait?" - George Eastman's suicide note. He took a final walk around Kodak Park before he died.
Everyone talks about Alzheimer's and dementia, but Daniel Kahneman has neither. He chose to commit suicide because he wanted to avoid “natural decline.” That's an unexpected statement from a 90-year-old. I'm more surprised by his lack of will to live and that he just “gives up” and throws away the most valuable thing he has.
> And even at the end, when asked what he would like to do, he said: "I would like to learn something."
Don't have an exact word to describe how I feel after reading above. Find it beautiful that such an accomplished person wanted to learn something even towards the end of his life.
"His decision seems to have been based less on his famous scientific thinking and more on a very personal feeling. He wanted to retain his autonomy until the end and to shape his own end."
So you could say it was more system 1 thinking rather than system 2.
I would've expected the opposite given our survival instincts.
My dad is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and it's made me think of what I'll do if I find myself in the same situation
Assisted suicide sounds like a fine option until you think of its impact on your loved ones. Imagining putting my wife and kids through my deciding to die, and the process of them bringing me to the place where it happens - or imagining one of them doing the same thing - just fills me with horror
> Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."
Sorry mate.
I find it somewhat fascinating that the article has a giant "Suicidal thoughts? You can find help here:" footer.
I don't think it's a link to an assisted suicide/dying with dignity center.
Society's relationship with intentional end of life decisions is fraught, to say the least.
I 100% understand his rationale, and in the same position I'd probably do the same -- "probably" because this is one of those things you can't possibly predict in advance.
Good account of his reasoning. Off topic, but my Dad’s last girlfriend before he died two years ago was a co-founder of the Hemlock Society/International Right To Die organization - huge effort to get assisted suicide made legal in different tax jurisdictions around the world and different states in the US.
I see a lot of comments here expressing disapproval about assisted suicide.
I'd like to quote from the HN guidelines:
> Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative.
With that said I urge you those who disapprove to ask whether you are being "rigidly negative" about this.
1. Is this disapproval perhaps coming from your religious context? If so, please pause and consider why that may not apply to the rest of us. And also whether you really think that your religious beliefs must be forced on the rest of us.
2. Is this disapproval coming from a sense of deep unease that this post causes? If so, know that this unease is shared by most of us. But try and muster the fortitude to go past that unease and consider the decision from a place of compassion.
I saw someone interviewed who had set the criteria of being able to enjoy some ice cream with his children and grandchildren at the regular family dinner on Sunday late afternoons.
He said that alone made life worth living, for him and them, but once any deteriorating conditions rendered him permanently unable to participate in this weekly activity then he felt it was time to go.
Maybe having a pre-set condition like this is less arbitrary, and also allows everyone involved to understand as the time comes closer.
I think it's beautiful he got to go out on his own terms, when he felt it was the right time to do so.
I'm often reminded about a case in my own country: a young person had decided it was time to end her life after struggling for many years, without a sign of improvement. She was denied the right to euthanasia. After multiple failed suicide attempts, she went for the nuclear option and jumped in front of a train.
Everyone deserves to die in a dignified and humane way, not in multiple pieces or with a mind deteriorated beyond recognition. Forcing prolonged suffering is unnecessarily cruel. I wish more countries were as progressive with euthenasia as Switzerland.
RIP, his work made a huge impression on me. And I admire the dignity to go when one chooses.
I guess we are all Dying, Fast and Slow.
> "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."
Death with dignity must be more accessible to more people who, by their rational choice, wants to use it.
There's a Star Trek episode with this exact plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Ne...
Seems like a good way to go out, "my choice, my body" . I realize some psychological exam should be necessary before such things but it really should be self-determined within reason. I hate that USA is so far behind the curve on this, but eventually we might catch up on it with Europe and not have to resort to more ugly methods.
Ever since I watched my father waste away in agony and die in a veterans home, it has become my greatest fear in life to suffer until the bitter end. I choose euthanasia because I don't want to put my family through that, and the last thing I want to do, if you'll pardon me, is to waste away in my own urine and feces in what will likely be a sub optimal care situation.
”Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."”
Seems like we should close this thread to honor these wishes
More of this, please.
What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed ridden? This is how I will go.
How much of the taboos against the right to suicide and abortion are because modern societies and economies depend on an ever-increasing population?
Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century:
> οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι συμβουλίην τοιήνδε
In English:
> Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course.
Cryonic preservation is assisted suicide but with a small bonus chance of living forever. Seems preferable.
Assisted suicide is not how a healthy society should respond to serious mental health conditions.
I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what kind of psychopath assists in the killing and why is that person allowed to keep practicing. Finally if we can kill ill people what really is the difference in implementing the death penalty and justifying it by ending the criminal insane’s suffering?
An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier?
For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers. It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.
I’m trying to figure out why this feels so unsettling to me. I can understand wanting to end one’s life because of unbearable pain or illness, but something about this just feels wrong.
Now this is hilariously non-ironic.
The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.
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I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago.
Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone.
He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license.
He argued with me about the state of some chicken he wanted to cook. I told him "this is pink all over, you have to cook it more". He got angry. I understood he'd become like this to everyone.
He pissed off everyone on his street, and all police, medical and social workers sent to help him. The disease made him blow up every relationship he had with anyone that he didn't know well, like me and a couple of colleagues.
He got found in his house, having left the gas on, endangering the whole street. He ended up in a care home, not knowing who he was, or who I was.
If he'd been run over by a car, or died of a heart attack at the age of 80, people he knew would remember him as that nice old guy who had a dog and made a lot of art, and was friendly to everyone. Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off everyone, nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a maniac.
You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.