Giving you a big hug.
I have been through really rough periods and as my health took a big toll, the only means I had to recovery was to move away from crazy startup life. Gradually I understood that, maybe, there is a better balance. I still want to learn, grow, solve problems, dream big.
Instead of making 3 year plans, I started making 10 year plans. I started taking care of my health, like it is the most important thing. I unplugged for a couple years, lived in cheap places to lower my financial burden.
Now I live in a small village, have built a work routine that has no deadlines and I am happy, very happy. I have a hostel I run here, I write software I love, I am planning a product. I just setup a camping spot, it is lush green around here, a slow and simple life (all shops close at 20:00 for example).
I sacrificed those magazine cover dreams but in return I got a wonderful life and I am building again, just at 0.5x speed. I hesitate to think about accelerators like YC. I know I will panic so much when it comes to all those metrics, money and everything else I cannot process anymore. But that is OK.
From my own experience of burning out and getting out of it:
Mechanics: it seems easier to get in to burn out but far far longer to get out of.
I know what I wanted to do but could not bring myself to do it.
Though not always, gut health (or the lack of it. My burn out coincided with my IBD episode) could be an early symptom to back off the throttle a bit.
Subjective: I've learnt to remember that look on someone face who's heading down burn out wall.
In long distance cycling, in order to not 'bonk', you must fuel and hydrate sufficiently and consistently over time. With burn out, I feel the same dynamics apply, but with different 'fuel' and 'hydration'. And every person is so different that the rate of replenishment needed should and have a wide variance.
What really helped me get out was, ironically COVID, when I couldn't do anything about my startup and I had to stop it and rest. The bleeding with my IBD just went away during the peak of lockdowns. Started to build and buy stuff, for leisure, that I enjoyed and had postponed away in my hustling years.
On hope: The human body and brain has a remarkable capability to recover and heal itself. But one does need to give it the right input: hanging out with wholesome or wise people, exercise, eating well, getting medical intervention when needed etc.
For me the critical moment was recognizing I had burnout. It happened when I saw this post on HN, whose list of symptoms almost perfectly matched what I was feeling: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2022/03/29/how-people-fall-ap...
I’ve obviously heard of burnout and experienced it before, yet somehow I failed to recognize what was happening until then.
So thank you for posting this. Hopefully it’ll help someone out there realize they’re burned out and start addressing it.
I experienced several episodes of what I thought was burnout (from all the symptoms often described), but in retrospect were periodic recurring depressions from type 2 bipolar disorder, triggered by stress.
PSA for anyone who might have the same situation — if you've experienced anything that resembles hypomania this may be worth investigating. The average time from first bipolar depression to diagnosis is 10 years, and I mistook several depressions for burnout while doing plenty of damage to my career and personal life during that time.
This is one of the best books on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Depressed-Recognizing-Managing-Bipola...
WFH and the general state of tech burned me (and continues to burn me) out big time.
I am extremely over Zoom meetings multiple times per day, every day, and what-feels-like-constant Slack interruptions. I usually love meetings, too!
Tech consulting is what I love doing, but all of the small consultancies are getting hoovered up by the big 4 or WITCH firms, and all of the big firms make you wear business casual and have strong money/sports/golf cultures, which sucks ass.
Going back to engineering and spending all day pairing on Zoom and dealing with petty politics isn't the way either.
Work just isn't exciting anymore; the last four years have felt like different takes of the same job (despite me changing jobs a few times! ). But going back to the office in a world where half of the folks there don't want to be there isn't fun either.
Also, all of the energy in tech is going towards AI, which I couldn't give less of a shit about. Startups are hella exploitative, but big companies prevent you from getting anything done.
I don't know.
A recent study from Sweden: https://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1851...
The traditional approach of treating burnout primarily through rest and recovery is overly simplistic and may not address the root causes of burnout. Newer models, such as Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), suggest that addressing psychological and existential needs, rather than just biological ones, can lead to more effective recovery.
Burnout treatment should not only focus on rest but also on helping individuals reconnect with what gives their life meaning, addressing feelings of fear, shame, and high self-demands, to achieve a more comprehensive and lasting recovery.
Also important to note – a lot of people correlate burnout strictly with overwork. You could be burned out due to overwork, sure, but you could also be burned out due to not having enough work. Or doing an average amount of work but not finding real meaning in it. Or another reason not directly related to work at all.
If you aren't 100% happy with your situation, and not getting out of bed every morning with a smile on your face, do your best to address it before things get really bad.
Many of us have experienced what you describe and it sucks. I hope you're able to sort it out and feel better about things sooner than later. That's generally the case.
But you and others should keep on mind that "burnout" is not a very precise or actionable word and thinking of your current challenges as being products of burnout doesn't give you much traction on what you can do about not feeling well or what external circumstances might help you recover.
Reading between the lines, and trying to be more precise, it sounds like you may have pushed yourself too hard for too long while neglecting essential self-care pracfices.
* You probably weren't resting very well (sleep; low-stimulation idle time).
* You probably weren't eating very well (fresh, nutritious food) and may not have even been preparing food for yourself (cooking).
* You may not have been physically tending to your self (being active, cleaning, dressing) and your space (cleaning, decorating).
* You may not have been keeping up with your relationships (friends, family) and your community (hobby groups, church/etc, light acquaintances).
For most people (and animals) -- when you don't do those things for long enough, it eventually just catches up with you. You're wired to do those things almost every day and the wires short out and things get funky when you ignore them for weeks or months or years as many fall into the habit of doing.
"Burnout" often suggests that the malaise is a product of what you were doing instead when that often isn't even relevant. Presumably, if you're here, the thing you were doing was something you were passionate about (impressing someone, acheiving something) and probably isn't suited for villification anyway.
Rather than just casting everything that feels wrong into the big vague lot of "burnout", try to take a minute to figure out what you were specifically neglecting and then try to get your hands dirty doing those neglected things (even if it's clumsy or slow or whatever in your fog and fatigue).
The number one trait I have seen in people who are burned out is that they utterly and completely deny they are burned out. They often furiously push back on the idea. "I cannot possibly be burned out, because I have way too much to do," or something less articulate.
Admitting you're burned out is the fist step on the path back. It can take years to get back to normal and have passion again. But it will return if you take care of yourself and avoid the kind of things that send you spiraling into stress.
I've been dealing with burnout multiplied by cancer in the family. My spouse was diagnosed back in 2020. It was tough and unmanageable until I got back to P.Cubensis and started microdosing it just to stay alive. I didn't go to stratosphere, and not a fan of a mAcrodose. But mIcrodose helped me to rewire my brain. Can't recommend it enough. Don't do P.Cubensis though, since P.Natalensis is the better, easier choice in all aspects. Also, dried Amanita Muscaria does a great thing - you're probably just one dried (!) 10cm cap away from getting back on rails. And no, you won't have a "trip" from it. I'm not talking about "trips", euphoria, etc. I'm talking about saving your life instead of wasting one.
I've learnt the hard way that there are protocols from getting back on your feet from the shittiest shit in your life. There are communities of people with MUCH SEVERE problems.
It's also in books, read "PSYCHEDELIC OUTLAWS: The Movement Revolutionizing Modern Medicine" by Joanna Kempner. (there is also audiobook). There are communities, really really good communities that will help you to get back on your feet again, quickly, no b/s (I'm a bit hesitant to share the links, but you can always reach out). This really works, verified.
If you're suicidal, call 988. Also, I can send you a link to a protocol that helped many people with a very good reviews. I discovered it by accident, and there is a community of people who implemented that. Once you have all the things, the help is so quick, in a week you gonna enjoy life again.
I recognized I was burned out three months ago, but wasn’t in a situation to do anything about it. Then work got even harder, and I tried to push through it.
My brain broke last Friday, I couldn’t think about even the most basic programming concepts without a lot of struggle and developing a nasty headache. I’m now in the exact same place as OP, and just told HR today that I need to file for temporary disability.
I’m scared, I fear my career may have just come to a screeching halt.
I regret not listening to myself months ago.
I got super burned out working in startups for about 8 years. didn't realize it on the inside. now that i'm out, i look back and realize i was in a constant state of stress and anxiety. i got my sleep back, started exercising, started doing ice plunge/sauna, cut stress, limited exposure to stupid messaging streams like slack. it's a new world. i had to remake myself chemically in tiny steps and it took about two solid years to do it.
I wonder how much burnout is exacerbated by the fact that projects never actually end in this business?
You never truly finish something. If you think you did, you are quickly disabused of that notion. You are lucky to ever feel that sense of pride in completion, and if you do, it is brief.
Pride in a job well done is fleeting, if you are ever allowed to feel it at all.
Yes, I'm a recovering victim of burnout, and no, this was not the only cause, but sometimes I wonder...
"burnout" can be anything from mental exhaustion to stress induced psychosis, and should be treated like any bodily injury - like you're not going to be playing tennis soon after a severe ankle sprain, and possibly never again at the same level after a nasty wrist break. mental injuries are real and take time to heal but when you don't realize this you just keep playing tennis on your sprained ankle and turn a small injury into a big one.
it feels like you can't learn, can't work, can't remember - this is just your body protecting itself, your ankle is wrapped. you have to listen to your body and give your mind a break before it takes one.
Every-time burnout comes up, I can’t help but notice that people are describing my default state as someone with severe ADHD and a fundamental dopamine deficiency. I can relate so much to every reported symptom that it becomes very difficult for me to frame burnout in the context of my own experience. Medication, exercise, healthy food, and cold showers are the tools I’ve always used to get myself close enough to a neurotypical background to be able to do things like teach myself how to code.
I feel for you, and I wish you a swift recovery! And if you get Covid, SLEEP AND CHUG WATER like your life depends on it, or you may get permanent burnout in the form of long covid (my worst nightmare), without the hope of recovery that you currently have to look forward to and strive towards :)
Ever since I snapped at a C-level exec and more or less told them to fuck off and stop asking me for shit, in more polite words, when they are categorically _not_ in the chain above me, I've been feeling a lot better. I may have completely burnt any and all bridges I have though, I don't know yet.
I've been burned out for two years after moving to a new country to work in one of the worst post-docs of my life. But, I've found I have no one to rely on but myself because employers don't care that you're burned out, they want to keep up their kpis. Sometimes you have to work even if you're already unhealthy.
By the way, this isn't a "when the going gets tough" sort-of post, I'm just stating the reality of life.
This is too real. This weekend is when I finally start looking for a new job. Corporate life just fucking sucks. Work is "easy" but it's just not rewarding. The before/after OP described is kind of on point. But add in the fact that I just don't give a fuck about this company anymore. There's nothing I work on that contributes to the betterment of society. Equivalent of pushing paper at this point.
Going to get a good fucking rest (10 hours of full sleep). Run in the morning. Then grind out applications and hitting up connections.
I was doing a startup with a high achiever, I estimate ~160 IQ or higher; he worked 7 days a week, at least 12 hours a day, but often 16 for at least 20 years. He was a step-change smarter than me; PhD in Chem E. from top school, brilliant computer scientist... the only time I saw him relax is once he played Sonic the Hedgehog for like 10 hours straight. He fried his motherboard... his wife texted me one day... he's in a coma... 12 days later he emerges from the hospital with amenesia... that was years ago, still has amensia, can't create new long-term memories, can't work, etc.
One thing that helped me during burnout is reading biographies, idk why it helped, but I'm passing it forward.
You're not alone, I'm burned out too and tired of every AI-related company expecting engineers to work more than 40 hours a week and nights and weekends, steal scope from teammates, fight for clout, fight for internal resources, on top of dealing with rush hour traffic for some stupid RTO metrics, with stupid-short amounts of vacation time, and expectations to take meetings during vacations.
AI was supposed to allow us to work less, not more.
I'd be okay if science moved 50% slower than it does now. I'm okay with AGI happening in 3 years instead of 2. Or 5. Or 10. I just want time to take care of myself, spend time watching sunsets with my girlfriend, create some art, and learn about what's going on elsewhere in the world instead of die early.
You should also know that it can take a LONG time to fully recover.
I got burnt out 3-4 years ago and am only now feeling like I’m coming back to normal. Maybe if I took a more intentional path to recovery I’d be back earlier, but it’s not like the kind of thing where you can take a couple weeks PTO and expect it to clear up
I burned out around 3 years ago and couldn't fix it with a year of traveling the world and working on side projects - thankfully I discovered Vipassana meditation which helped me bounce back stronger than ever. Hopefully someone else in a similar situation might find this potential solution useful.
Interestingly, while chronic sleep deprivation is harmful, studies show that a single night of sleep deprivation can have a rapid, temporary antidepressant effect in 40-60% of people with depression. I tried this after burning out on my third startup, and it helped me short-term when I needed it most. You can read more about the research Penn Medicine (https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2017/septemb...).
I was only a few years in IT until I burned out and never really found back into a 'normal' life a bit more than 8 years ago.
I haven't had a normal job since.
I still can't imagine working a daily job. I highly doubt I will ever be able to do that. At least not in a stressful matter as development jobs turned out to be.
HOWEVER, it never stopped me from trying. And today maybe I need 3 or 5 weeks at a time of doing nothing or just joyful things but when I head back into a Project I can do it with full enthusiasm, enough energy and most importantly fun. Fun doing what I am able to, fun learning new things on the way.
My guess is the only reason this actually works for me is because nobody ever tells me what I have to do and when I have to do it.
It just takes a few days of stress I can't control and I am back into a vulnerable potato.
I have burned out at least 10 times in my career. The last time, it was like I lost half a decade, even though it didn't last quite that long. It was as if I had amnesia. I fell into a deep depression. I considered killing myself just because everything seemed so difficult and pointless.
Give yourself some more time. You might not emerge exactly as who you remember, but its possible to mostly recover from the pretty extreme cognitive impairment that you are likely struggling through.
What to do? My company dropped support for therapy, I pay $4k a month in rent and feel I probably just won’t wake up some days. I wouldn’t mind taking a break, but the nonstop posts about not being able to get a job don’t help. Have never felt more trapped.
I got burned out with the combination of a high intensity job, care taking a dying spouse, and managing the decline and dementia of a parent. Both deaths occurred near each other. I had always been highly productive and successful but at a certain point I couldn't really focus anymore. My brain felt empty. I had trouble learning things. Luckily I had had one of those golden jobs in which I made a small fortune. I retired early. Now I feel fresh again and I want to get back into the mix. It took a couple of years though.
What did I do? Grief workshops, therapy, gym, meditation, grief groups, community service, deeper friendships. It works. It just takes time.
I started doing dev work at 17. Initially, it was the most fun and productive stage of growth in my life. After switching companies, I started taking on a lot of responsibility and stress. I didn't know how to communicate when it was too much. I was very ambitious and studied programming for hours outside of work every day. The projects assigned to me began to feel meaningless. At this time, I was also in a long distance relationship. By age 19 my mental health was absolutely destroyed. After quitting my job, I couldn't even open an editor for months. It took a lot of healing before I could even think about writing another line of code.
Although I've somewhat recovered from burnout and depression, I still have lasting symptoms that haven't gone away.
My memory in particular has not recovered. I used to memorize hundreds of digits on pi-day just for fun. My mental energy is not the same, and everything (things what were previously easy) continue to be challenging.
I'm giving it time. I'm pretty happy now, but I miss the raw intellectual abilities.
OP, I don't know a solution to this, but I'm curious if you've tried intensive exercise routines, low calorie diets, time in nature, cold showers, socializing and, working on your non-work life as a whole? I've seen this help me out in similar battles and I have also seen them recommended to others.
I also have a more general question to everyone on this thread, what is the difference between burnout and demotivation? How can one tell the difference?
This is a psychological issue, but everything psychological is also physical. It’s all one interconnected system. So please see a doctor and have your bloodwork done. Doing that was the first step to escaping my burnout. I wish I had done it sooner.
Been there done that. For me burnout is no so much about overwork. The happiest I’ve been was when I did contracting/consulting where I’d routinely work 50-60 hours a week. It’s more about feeling “trapped” in a set of circumstances, eg a dead end job where no matter what I do forward progress is impossible, project I don’t believe in, stuff like that. The solution has always been: take 6-9 months off and go elsewhere. 25 years and several major job changes later, it works. Not everyone can take this much time off of course, but you have to change your situation at least, or this thing can easily turn just getting out bed in the morning into torture.
What's the difference between a light bulb and a programmer?
A light bulb stops working when it burns out.
---
Source: https://mas.to/@yogthos/111573984275836954
I like it; it's funny, it shows the industry has a problem, it also makes me stop working so hard.
Same, I noticed my decline about two years before I got covid (2019). Getting covid def didn't help. I've managed to work a pretty simple software dev job mostly fixing bugs and not under any time constraints. I think that helped, but then I just now got laid off because the company realized that they could outsource most of the software work to china and/or Philippines. That and the notion that along with AI, I don't think the American based software developer will ever be a thing again. Which that is making me depressed again...
I have struggled with burnout, and I believe it’s a capacity thing, related to continuous trauma, and I’ve had success getting it treated the same way.
Sometimes this trauma can be something as simple as a toxic workplace, or choosing work over taking care of your own needs. It’s something I’ve struggled with throughout my life, and I’ve found talk therapy helps a lot, along with self care, and life changes. Psilocybin helps as well, to see things from different perspectives, like therapy does, and to mechanically loosen up those neural connections that are keeping us stuck.
Most people bounce back if removed from their source of trauma, but if it persists, or if you’ve become the source of your own trauma, consider therapy.
Burnout and depression and these things are your body trying to tell you something, that whatever you are doing isn’t working for you. Don’t fight it, listen to your body, reconnect with how you’re feeling and why in therapy, and make changes in your life. Feelings are the feedback on our actions. If you touch a hot stove and it hurts, that’s your body telling you to make a change. If living your life in a certain way, or working at a certain place, or having a certain person in your life is making you not feel good, that’s your body telling you to make a change.
Learning quickly and easily intuiting solutions for problems is something that will ebb and flow throughout your career. Totally normal. One symptom of burnout is getting anxious and hypervigilant about your effectiveness!
Burnt out badly in 2022, empty tank, few “can’t get up” episodes. It took six months and one trouble only to find a stable point in my mind, but recovering didn’t even start then. I’m almost two years floating free (thank myself being smart with money) and am even trying a couple activities this year, but it takes time to replace the broken parts.
All, ymmw, but take note you may not recover from it by simply taking a vacation.
Btw, distancing didn’t work for me. It was the opposite, I couldn’t work in an env that couldn’t care less as a whole.
Another note is that eat, shit and sleep system is in a strong feedback loop with all that.
Also, I was alone most of my life and fine with it, but living with a relative suddenly changed a few things that I can’t explain. Simple human presence shifts something, although I’m not craving for it and find it burdensome in general.
Burnout can also be bad to your relationships. It can break stuff because of your lack of energy and positivity.
It's not only caused by overwork and it's often a combination of things: overwork, lack of meaning, lack of recognition, misalignment with your values...
If you feel like you are slowing down and it starts being difficult to get started working for more than a few days, it is critically important to do something. Burnout sets up slowly and strongly and it's hard to notice.
A friend who has burned out and has been seeing a therapist who told him burnout is the brain breaking like an overused muscle. Burnout might be a defense from the brain against what harmed it. I don't know if it's true but I believe it's a better perspective than "I'm too strong for burnout" or "it's purely psychological" or "it's in your head".
Take care.
In my opinion, everyone should try therapy at least once.
Just like you have a primary care physician for your general health, a dentist for your teeth, it makes sense to have a medical professional to help you with your brain.
I think of it as a best practice. Can you get by with out it? Sure. Will you be doing things optimally? Definitely not.
Burnout isn’t working too hard, it’s not working on the right thing. You have to have a purpose .
I don’t mean “doing what you love “ – that’s futile. I mean finding a purpose for doing what you are doing
It should always be conquering the world . Not changing it . Changing it is a half measure
Is there any job out there where you can go without lying? Lying leads to burnout for me. Stretching tasks out makes me feel bad and maybe also leads to burnout. I just want to do an honest day's work without someone pressuring me to be insincere.
How are you doing now? I too suffered pretty severe burnout. I’m a programmer.
I realised my burnout came from working (5 days a week), feels like an unending marathon
What worked for me was dropping one full day of work each week. Now work 32 hours a week, really happy
The Ikigai (生き甲斐, lit. 'a reason for being') chart is quite helpful:
https://hyperisland.com/en/blog/thought-leadership/feeling-d...
In general, most techs usually just get bored after awhile, and seek something more interesting to pursue. Hobbies and sport participation sometimes helps, but if you are already at the burnout stage it usually requires a few years doing something else to recover.
Secretly, most fantasize about being a Plumber everyday... =3
I just got fired from my new job because of performance reasons. I was not good enough. Even though I cleared the interview well enough, For some reason I am simply unable to care about the job.
I am not able to bring myself to care about the tasks assigned to me, not able to care about them. I just want to do my time and leave. The commute to and from office in the peak Mumbai traffic wears me off like an old man, I just don't see the point in toiling to hard just to do a simple job. How pointless. I am feeling relieved after hearing about my termination news, no toiling in loud, noisy, crowded and sweaty traffic, no perpetual lagging behind the deadline, no pressure.
I simply fail to bring myself to care about my employer's problem as sincerely as they want me to and like the other employees do. Its just not that important enough for me and I can't pretend that it is, I would rather go for an ice cream after office with a friend than work on some feature that those business people are so excited about...
I've found a solution of sorts to this all. At least one that works for me, I'll add that caveat.
It basically rests in the concept - it doesn't have to be true, it can simply be the mental model by which you operate - that we are all natural multiples, and that DID is when that system goes askew due to trauma.
As such, I am able to characterize the part of me that demands perfection, that requires things, as a soldier or as a survivor self. But I make sure that there is also a parent in the mix. I make sure that self-care is part of the makeup.
Another thing that has helped me - and it is a lesson I wish I had not learned this way - is that coping mechanisms can outlive their usefulness and kill you. I had a bipolar friend. He found a way to quiet his voices enough that he could sleep. That way was getting drunk. He died from alcohol poisoning. His coping mechanism killed him. I still miss him very much, and although I tend not to cry, his memory still easily brings me to tears. They're in my eyes now.
That can happen with any coping mechanism. Nearly all our coping mechanisms when brought too far can actually, physically kill us. My own was emotional eating.
There's lots more - and these concepts can be investigated more under the terms "integrated family systems", "parts work", and "ego family systems", among others - but the basic idea is that you have to balance out the part of you that is intent on keeping you alive by demanding perfection, by creating a part of you that loves yourself - not cheesily, not hippie-style, just loves yourself. For some, it is the parentage you may not have had, and it may be foreign, and you may need help adopting these attitudes. But there are people out there who want to help you, just out of the goodness of their professions and hearts; seek them out.
I'm dealing with burnout and unemployment, and it's legitimately the hardest time in my life to self-start and do anything other than basic life functions. Some days I have a wellspring of energy, but most days I'm just existing. I realized I don't even have the luxury of forgoing my mental health, if I don't work on it now things won't ever get better. And my programming skills aren't stagnating, but MAN I feel like I'm not getting better.
Went through a similar thing, two years on I’m still not recovered.
Just to say that even though it might not feel like it right now, it eventually gets better. You have to give it time. Sometimes a long time. And seek support from friends and family but also from a professional.
And once you’ve recovered, learn the signs so you can see it coming and prevent it. Leaving a shitty job or even a profession that doesn’t work for you anymore is always preferable than getting burnt out.
Good luck, friend!
I've been through this quite a few times in my life, get outside some more, do some exercise (light), take it easy, you'll bounce back.
>- After: can't learn, can't work, can't remember, can't see solutions for trivial problems (e.g. if your shirt is wet, you can change it, but I stare at it thinking when it is going to get dried up)
I am having similar symptoms. I have suffered a lot at work, family problems and it conflicting with personal interests and hobbies. I trudged on with sheer will earlier and had unbounded enthusiasm, passion and motivation. Now everything is kind of broken and I feel I am just floating. Days passing by is just a blur. I have become completely disillusioned with society and its intentions and world just seems ultra complicated. I am not sure whether it is burnout as I don't have information of it nor do I have met people who suffer from it. I am not sure whether it is my age, diet or something else. :-(
Thanks for sharing and I have been in the similar situation before twice. The never-ending feeling of uselessness, stagnation and helplessness sucks real bad. and after a while I (re-)discovered the power of charity and routine.
You don't need something grandeur. Sometimes a routine of 5 minutes in the morning works. Write down the one thing you can do for others of the day that you can definitely get it done, and before you sleep you cross it out or not, and write down 1 small thing to be grateful to.
For example:
In the morning I wrote: I will say thank you with a smile to a random cashier in the supermarket when I do grocery.
At night I should be able to cross it out. Even if I cannot it is nothing to beat myself with. I will add 1 little thing to be grateful to, as small as able to post on HN works too!=)
Hope you can recover soon and regain your sense of self-worthiness soon. After all your are not (only) a learner and problem solvers. You are more than that =)
I forgot who said this, but burnout is only the result of hard work not paying off.
When you work hard and things are going well, you get energized and can work 24/7.
When you work hard and things aren't panning out, you get "burnout".
This coincides with people who work extremely hard and have done so for decades (think of top tech founders... for example Jensen Huang: https://x.com/seanpk/status/1829526623731024055)
If you feel burnt out, chances are you're not getting the results you want. So instead of concluding "burnout is affecting my brain" I think the better reaction is to ask yourself "what needs to change?"
I could be wrong, but burnout happens for any/all of 4 reasons:
1. Lack of complete focus and not prioritizing daily jobs
2. Multitasking
3. Trying to do almost everything by yourself instead of delegating
4. Not asking for help
I would also like to point out that self-doubt in your abilities, questioning your confidence and "I can't do this" mentality are detrimental to your mental health.
I have this pinned and read it like once a month just as a refresher to not let it get that far
Despite a lot of the other comments suggesting "easy" fixes, untreated and long-lasting depression (in general) and burnout (specifically) can have these lasting effects. These do NOT seem to be treatable without psychiatric and medical intervention - the brain has spend too much time in a depressive state, and it can't get out of it by itself. Psycho therapy alone and other usual interventions (sleep, proper nutrition, positive stimulation) simply won't help anymore.
So, advise for everyone: real (in terms of "professionally diagnosed") depression and burnout for too long (over months and years) can break you in ways you can't imagine. Treat it early.
I've had something similar before. Try to pick up hobbies, learn new things, check your blood values, it slowly gets better. All of your cells multiply and die. You are not the same organism from eight years ago.
I got burned out recently too, and it is such a frustrated feeling. And made me begin to think what it comes from and what is the root cause of it
I think in my experience, lack by appreciation is one of the reason
After thinking about it several month I wrote an article to help others cope with the situation of lacking appreciation
https://open.substack.com/pub/connectingdotsessay/p/apprecia...
Hope it can help others whom is entering the same situation
Join a gym, one with real barbells, do Starting Strength for six months, getting physically exhausted 3 or 4 times a week does wonders for your mental health. I didn’t believe it until I did it.
I feel like I have the opposite problem. I started my new job at the tail end of the pandemic in mid-2021. It's been fully remote and I have never worked more than 20 hours in a week. Most weeks I can get everything I need to do in an average week in 2 days tops. Co-workers are great and the company's doing great but I have such little to do that it's kind of ruined my work ethic. I'm partially scared of leaving/going to a new job because I don't know if I can handle doing 40 hours again.
In the same boat, and I wanted to add the worst thing... your energy level (or lack thereof)
I used to be able to play games or work for hours (even without taking breaks)
Currently I can do some simple things like making breakfast, taking care of personal hygiene, or write this small comment without getting tired, but if things get a little bit more complex I am getting so exhausted that I need to go to bed for a while.
Take good care of yourselves people, having a brain quit on you most of the time really is not that great :(
You might find some advice listed here useful : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488
I burned out in 2021 quite badly. Moved to Zambia (from UK) and switched from primarily software engineering to wild mushrooms.
Still coded as a hobby and explored the parts of it I enjoyed.
Now in 2024 I'm back in the game and loving it! Glad I had the privilege to take such a long break and try something else. The key take away here is it took me years to properly recover (and therapy).
Go easy on yourself, don't get swept up in the frenzy of work. Work to live not the other way around.
Hey OP, you should read about the carnivore diet and possibly give it a try. It clears brain fog right up and helps with cognitive function.
I know what you mean. The fix is to get out and get a different job that's not in your current field. Make it a simple job and do it until you get better. Do not stay home and hope you'll somehow get cured. Try different things until you find something you can do and like. You'll find something but you have to work towards getting it. You will not suddenly find a way out, especially if you stay home and do nothing to change.
I can't tell you how many developers feel this way, there is no reason for this to be the norm. Be sure to seek professional help but if you'd like someone to talk to someone who can relate feel free to book a time https://calendly.com/thanks_dev/30min
On the topic of burnout, besides oneself, of course burnout can also happen to others.
We can help colleagues avoid burnout, by proactively eliminating/reducing factors that contribute to burnout. Maybe also talk about it discreetly with a colleague who seems at-risk stressed/overextended.
Whether we're managers/leads or ICs.
Burn out is something bad. But it learns so much to you. I have several friends and family who had it and the first lesson to learn is to accept it. Than you can start healing. Be aware. And 1 step at a time. Also it never really goes away . If I can do anything for you just ask
Pro tip: When the mind and body feel out of sync, start with the physical.
It's natural, it's free, and it works wonders for your brain.
Whether it's gymming, running, walking, smiling, breathing, or any sport that excites you—just start and don't stop.
The key is to keep moving!
Pro tip: working part-time helps.
For faster recovery, lift weight over your head. Increase weight gradually.
The recovery process can take time, but you're not alone. For me it's hart to prioritize rest, coz it feels unproductive... But we need to rest!
Burn out is nasty. I had several friends and family that have it. Step 1 is acceptance. 2. Be aware 3. It never goes away and dare to ask help. So if I cantaloupe you with anything just ask I be here for you
it was fun for me.
i just forgot how to do my job. not exact operations or how to code. by what is exactly my job consist of what. for year like. and at same time appeared i started to do my job better as per 3rd parties feedback.
also i was thinking i am clever, but after just came realization i am far from. so i did learn some math and what are other people really are to catch up with the world.
just learn math, hear what boss/wife/child tell, no coffee , and some meditation of absolutely any kind.
after some years, i feel life as like walking in a forest with animals and random forestfires here and there.
you might have long covid
It took me 1+ year to recover from it. Left the job, had no idea what to do for months. Now feeling a bit better, able to think clearly, also started learning new things again.
Burnout almost single-handedly ruined my life. Do not recommend.
I have a different view on this, maybe it's because I'm in the depths of burnout. I don't think I am - I walked away from my career in tech about 2 years ago, and it still feels like the right thing to do. Threads like this do make me think and question it a bit, so feedback appreciated.
The essence is I suspect there's a perfect correlation between the increased mention/awareness of burnout, and the stupid in-your-face selfish, aggressive capitalism that inspires many in VC backed tech leadership positions.
Everyone I've personally known who's experienced burnout has typically been an ultra-high achiever: they have a personality type that just wants the world to be better for everyone, and they go and try and do that. They do tech because that's what they've done since they could walk/talk. They're star employees when being themselves, but being themselves becomes impossible to sustain in an environment where a bunch of people just want to selfishly improve their own world without caring about others.
When I think about it this way, I then worry about the world we're creating by telling people with burnout to be more selfish, rather than telling the leaders and environments that lead to burnout that they're the problem.
Maybe that's all burnout talking though.
I feel this. Something happened to me after 2020, it was just this slow decline of my mental acuity. I’m trying hard to get it back, but it’s very difficult.
Take care.
Depression is killing me. I'm losing this war.
the book - from strength to strength - might help with understanding the transition between pre-40 and post-40 in terms of how one's brain works
I quit my job this month to pursue things that make me happier. Very hard decision but at least I'm happy to be trying! Best of luck, OP.
This may stop. I had a similar situation in 2019 but it was caused by post traumatic stress and an indifferent company.
Then I had post traumatic growth about 3-4 years after, I achieved 3 qualifications in 3 months, and within a year won a Hackathon, was promoted and became one of the highest performing people in my new job without even trying (PTG manifested the ability without any real conscious effort).
I put this down to some kind of repair mechanism. I still have some lesser depression but the post traumatic stress is gone.
The growth eventually stopped but I still perform at a marginally higher level than prior to the event without effort (e.g. distinctions in appraisals where previously it would be very good or similar).
My personality also changed, I no longer settle for shit and speak my mind frankly not caring very much about consequences (but never insulting other people).
Did you get a covid shot recently?
Because that kind of brainfog is exactly what the covid shot gave me for about one entire year.
Slow productivity by Cal Newport helped me reframe work and my boundaries with it when I was on the edge of burn out.
I have a pet theory that burnout and depression are mostly the same thing, just triggered by different things.
Brain going bad is burnout. Subtle, but important perspective that helps spot symptoms early on.
Mental health has underestimated for a long time :(
Take a very long holiday without electronic devices; Nokia brick and decent camera aside.
Exercise, sleep, nutrition, and screen time. Getting these right is life-changing.
I had a convergence of a few things that caused a huge burnout - building work on my house, 18 month long software project implementation that eventually failed, and stress that comes from being a sole provider.
Ultimately I woke one day and couldn't talk, this went on for a couple of weeks. It wasn't until 4 to 6 weeks later that I could get out of bed. I just broke.
Discovered from this that I was autistic and had an autistic burnout, but I've not been the same since, I'm better than I was but lesser than before.
Sorry to hear OP, hope you’re in a position to take some time off.
If I have one thing to share about burn out, it’s that I didn’t think I would get it. Maybe someone reading this is like I was.
I always and energy to do everything. I was often the hero making sure we recovered from errors over the weekend, we hit unrealistic deadlines, or we were prepared for stakeholders beyond what we thought was possible. I thought this was rewarding and that it would help my career, so it was worth it. I liked feeling useful and needed by my team.
It seemed for a decade or so that this fountain of energy, what I assumed was innate enthusiasm, would never end. It seemed like the natural thing to do.
Well, eventually real life happened. I had kids to care for. I had a relationship to maintain. I couldn’t continue working time and a half in perpetuity. Weekend projects and learning got sidelined.
The healthy response to this would be recognizing how crazy it was in the first place. Instead I doubled down in both directions. I’d be an awesome parent and partner, AND I’d keep doing my best at work. It’ll be easy I said, I just need to manage my time better. I just need to plan and strategize. It’s only hard right now because I’m working hard, not smart.
I was wrong. Everything suffered. I began to resent myself for it, steadily whittling down my self esteem and confidence. I brought a worse version of myself to everything I did. And worse all the time.
I wish I was kidding but this gradual descent took a decade. It wasn’t just burn out. It was a complete restructuring of my internal monologue and outward lens on the world. I became incredibly depressed. It wasn’t until years, literally years, of intense burn out that I began to consider that I was experiencing burn out.
Burn out is a trendy buzz word, I figured. Work is supposed to be challenging. People the world over have found work hard for all of time and that’s precisely why it’s called work, right?
I had endless excuses for why I needed to work harder. I needed to stop going so easy on myself. Yet simultaneously I felt overwhelmed with the expectations I believed people had of me. Life gradually began to seem something like impossible. How could I possibly do all of this stuff?
Thinking this was normal was my ultimate undoing. I never stopped to think shit, Steve, you’ve got some dumb ideas. Take a break. Relax. Do less. I kept insisting to myself that it was all expected, required, necessary. By failing to do all of it I wasn’t experiencing the natural consequence of taking on too much… I was discovering that I was incompetent, unskilled, intelligent, etc.
Please don’t let yourself be me. It snuck up on me in the craziest way. I thought I was smarter than that, frankly. I don’t consider myself particularly smart, but I thought this would be relatively easy to avoid. I figured the signs would be obvious.
They probably are to others. For you, it might be incredibly insidious and entrenched much deeper than you’d imagine.
Maybe the best strategy is caring for yourself. My burn out was the product of insecurity and feeling the need to put others first almost relentlessly. Don’t do that. You matter as much as the people around you. Take care of yourself.
I recently read that cynical people can die 7 yrs easier and suffer from host of diseases . My burnout is mainly from cynicism towards the world.
My worldview is that you have to taken under the wing of an influential person( usually a white man) to go anywhere in the world.
for example, I just cannot get over the fact that Paul Graham knew within 3 minutes of meeting sam altman that he was going to the next bill gates and that he superpower was that he is 'Michael jordan of listening' . These are actual quotes, not parody. A totally unimpressive person like sam altman with no tangible accomplishments grifted his way to stratosphere because paul graham gave the teenager 4% stake in stripe for 15k, for what reason i don't know ( well i have some creepy guesses but i will keep them to myself).
I quote this example because a lot of ppl around here believe in meritocracy and are spinning their wheels with nothing to show for.
Get well, OP. There was a time in me that I have been working for hours in front of my laptop then suddenly I feel like I just woked up working and I cannot remember much of what I was doing in the past couple of hours working. Strange experience but I know it is a burnout, I have resigned and moved to another job after that.
Thank you. This is a good reminder.
Sounds more like depression...
Possible iron deficiency.
> Take care of your mental health
How?
old age happened, noble man )
You know when you are burned out and you seek advice from other people? Brain fog? exercise, magnesium and so on Can't sleep? drink milk Tired? Eat well, take vitamins
I did all these and while it did help, it also felt like I was returning $1 on a $1 million debt.
So the wort burnout I've got was due to some stomach bug. This prevented the normal absorption of food and soon enough I was running on fumes (while still being quite active).
What's interesting is that at this point all those advises don't actually solve anything, they might even make things worse.
Brain fog? you don't get any fuel for your brain, so yes brain frog. Do you also exercise or do some treks? Your fuel tank is empty and you force your body to eat into your body to take what it needs. It will make you fell worse, not better. If you exercise and almost immediately feel sleepy, that's a clear sign. Can't sleep? yes, chronic illness will do that to you. Your body is in a state of panic because it knows that something is very wrong. You don't fall asleep anymore, you just collapse from being awake for too long. Depressed? all your days start to look a like, chronic illness will do that to you. Anxious? you drink chamomile tea? will not fix the underlying issue. Nice try.
So you find the actual problem and you fix it. Now you are OK, right? well no. You are missing all the minerals and all the vitamins your body could not absorb. I took some multivitamins and that felt good, some magnesium and I felt only a little better and the last one was Vitamin C. That felt amazing. All the muscle and joint pain, and lack of focus disappeared. Suddenly I could focus, I could exercise, I could cook for myself, go out and so on. Only from this point forward I can follow those well meaning advises.
Not sure from where I took the bug, my guess is the water. Given that a lot of people don't actually have access to good water I think it's very common. Also a big problem is that you don't actually feel ill. I never had diarrhea for example. It starts very innocent as a mood change and nothing else: you don't quite feel it today, a little hard to focus, you sleep a little worse next day/week/month and now you are even less able to focus, but you blame it on the bad sleep and so on. The things compound and once you are in that hole it's much harder to get out.
So my advice is if you have a bad mood for a long period of time, then you might have something physically wrong with you and look into that. No amount of meditation, tea or anything else, can fix that for you.
Interestingly I had periods in which I felt better. It turns out I was consuming Coca-Cola which has a slight antibacterial effect. But given that I didn't know the root cause at the time, I felt worse when I was trying to live healthy and so I stopped the Coke.
Fellow burn-out, here. For about 3/4 years, I have noticed a massive increase in my Depression and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. My wife has also noticed my personality changes that have occured, and my general loss of interest in things that used to bring me joy.
I was diagnosed with Depression and GAD in 2000 after a fairly long and drawn out process that told me something I already knew. In the nearly 25 since, I have been hyperaware of the impact exteenal factors have on my conditions and over-all state of being.
In the event that it helps anyone, even a single person reading this, here is what I have learned:
1. It's okay to walk away from a toxic work environment. I have done a lot of work in factories over the years. Between the harsh conditions, unrealistic expectations and juvenile masculinity, I was getting mentally beat to a pulp because I thought I was supposed to uphold the status quo in those places. The status quo, as it turns out, is set by people who are more miserable than you and want to drag you to Hell with them. Let them go and walk away. Being driven to the point of drug abuse (or worse) is not worth any paycheck.
2. You are greater than the sum of your parts. You are not your job, your hobbies, your clothes, etc, but an amalgamation of all those things that is not necessarily unique, but a whole and contributing person, and that cannot be taken from you unless YOU allow it to be.
3. Avoid seeking reason for everything outside your control. The sooner you accept the Universe has no plan that you can comprehend, the better. It is a chaotic, irrational place from our tiny perspective and not a useful line of inquiry. Instead, your energies can be turned to your reason for your own actions and reactions, the only things you can really control.
4. Be firm but fair with self-honesty. Your faults are also opprtunities to improve, not road blocks. This will ne exceptionally difficult, but your strengths will see you through. My personal rule is to never stop tryinh to ne better than I was yesterday, for falling stagnant is no different than being dead.
5. Leave your spaces better than you found them...not just for other people, but also for yourself. When we take care of our immediate environments, we tend to feel more focused and energized. My depression stints are often followed by house-cleaning, and it surprises me every single time how cluttered and disoriented I allowed things to get.
I believe people with Anxiety and Depression are more prone to burnout than others, and in the societies that tend to demand more of us than we can give, be it as workers, lovers, consumers or citizens, we are a particularly vulnerable population. That means we must fight harder.
My burnout has taken me to dark, dark places, and there are lights that keep me going. Right now, I am mustering what evergy I can to help my son learn to cope with these things while teaching myself new skills so I can make a move into a career that will be more rewarding and inline with my personal ethos.
What works for you? What helps with burnout, and the anxiety/depression that tends to come with it?
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I am currently working for Boeing and its a disaster. I get constant hell from my manager because i stop at 40.
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lol it’s funny how many of these class warfare topics popped up over the last 2 hr. Anyway, if anyone thinks burnout is real maybe take a look at Nvidia. Paying people more money is a pretty straightforward way to retain them. But that’s not the message that is being astroturfed on hacker news right now, the message is that if you refuse to work in certain conditions you’re burned out, or that your struggle is with management, or whatever. It’s really important for no one to ask themselves to explain why a 10% year over year increase on a median priced single family home in California is literally a form of passive income that exceeds the median salary. Did you get an $80k raise this year? Know anyone who did? Know any companies who are handing out these raises? DM me. I’m at FAANG right now not seeing any of it
Early on in my career (I was a late bloomer and already in early 30's) as a developer, I got burnt out pretty bad twice. After the second time and teetering on a third, I knew I had to do something to change what I was doing and how I managed my work load.
I just focused on getting MY stuff done and that was it. I stopped taking on other's people work. I stopped taking on more work once I got my stuff done. I would do exactly what a Sprint called for. Nothing more, nothing less. If I finished early with my tasks, I would stretch out the time and just tell the scrum master I was close, but not done yet, but always finished on time. I basically just did what was required of me. I wasn't out to impress anybody, I just became "Mr. Dependable" on any of the teams I worked on.
This was the approach that changed everything.
Now, some ten years later? I'm never too high or too low. I still do the same thing, I still just do what is asked of me and that's it. 5pm every night? Laptop gets turned off. Friday at 6pm? Laptop is off for the entire weekend. I turn it back on right before my meetings on Monday. Separating my personal life from my work life with a hard delimiter was paramount.
I found out that if you don't protect your sanity and your own well being, people will take advantage of you and your time and it will never end. Once you break the cycle and get that time back for yourself? You'll make sure you never willingly give it to someone else ever again.
Protect yourself. Protect your sanity. Once you lose it, like OP said, it's very, very hard to get back.
I hope this helps someone else struggling to break this cycle.